There Is No Trinity; There Is Only Christ

In Jesus Christ, God manifested Himself to us in human form.

Churches will tell you that God exists in trinity: three Persons in One being.  “The Triune God,” or “The Trinty,” they call it.  This is, however well-intended, double-talk.  God is either one or He’s more than one – He can’t be both.  God is not illogical, nor is He contradictory.

Three persons co-existing as one being is a nonsensical concept.  Among human beings, multiple or split personalities are rightly considered disorders or aberrations.  In the Bible the only example we find of multiple personalities are when a person was a victim of demon possession – and Jesus cured every person like that He encountered.  How could God be like something so heinous?

Beings with more than one head are the stuff of mythology…and nightmares.  We naturally recoil at the image of Cerberus, the hideous three-headed dog of Greek lore.  And today, when we see conjoined twins, our hearts are broken…and we pray for healing.  None of these are true analogies to the trinity – they are just as close as people can come.  That shows just how far removed from reality the concept of a trinity is!

The trinity is not a biblical concept, it is a philosophical one.  Can you find any analogy to it in the visible universe?  In the Bible, God constantly uses aspects of the visible creation as analogies for the truths He would teach us about Himself and the invisible dimension of creation.  Rest assured that if the trinity were a true description of the way God is, He would have put analogies to it in the physical creation.

By contrast, the Bible is constantly comparing Jesus to things we do see in creation: He’s the Lamb of God, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the good Shepherd, the bread of life, light of the world, the stone that the builders rejected, the King of Israel, and so on.

The reason that church leaders originally developed and continue to perpetuate the doctrine of the trinity is that it is a way for them to acknowledge the deity of Christ while they deny they He has come again in glory as God the Father of all (for more on this point, see God Is Not in a State of Suspended Animation and Jesus Christ Has Already Come Again).  If church leaders were to acknowledge that the kingdom of God has come, they would have to let go of their churches in order to seek the kingdom.  (I know firsthand because I was a pastor and I learned that to truly seek the kingdom of God means the abandonment of church; for more on this, see To My Pastor and Minister Friends.  Human beings are overseers in the churches, but Jesus is the overseer in the kingdom of God; for more on this, see Seeking the Kingdom of God Instead of Church.)  Who wants to serve God as part of a human-led organization when God Himself is enlisting people in His own organization?

An essential aspect of why God appeared to us as a human being (that is, as Jesus) is so that we could more easily relate to Him.  The concept of God being a trinity of persons frustrates that purpose.  If God truly was a trinity, He was only manifesting one-third of Himself through Jesus Christ – and what would be the point of that?

Christ explains God; the trinity concept mystifies Him.  Christ gives us a way to relate to God; the trinity concept removes Him farther from our understanding.  If God wants us to obey Him (and, of course, He does), Christ moves us toward that goal; the trinity concept puts that goal out of practical reach.

Jesus Himself famously said, “No one can serve two masters.”  If that’s the case, why would anyone think we could serve three?

The trinity therefore is both an illogical and unbiblical idea.

What is the correct way to think of God?  Just as the Bible portrays Him: Jesus Christ our Lord.  God became flesh and dwelt among us.  We – in our sinfulness – rejected Him to the point of murder by crucifixion.  However, He was raised from the dead and ascended back to heaven.  From there He eventually re-assumed His rightful place as head of all creation.

When you call upon God, you’re calling upon Jesus – a person.  He has lived a life like you are living.  He knows the difficulties; He has experienced them firsthand.

Call today and every day upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord.  He is our God.  He is our Father.  And His Holy Spirit will make you to know His thoughts in the depths of your heart for as long as you seek Him in sincerity and truth.

Comfort yourself always with this truth:  If you turn your thoughts toward the Lord Jesus, it will not escape His notice.

If you would like elaboration on this post about Christ versus the trinity, click on Bible Notes below.  Also you can see this index:  Posts to Date on the Trinity Versus Christ, which will give you extensive elaboration (well over one hundred posts) on the subject.

If you’d like a broader overview to the subject of God and all the material covered on this blog see this Introduction-Overview.

Bible notes on this post.

The purpose of this blog is to proclaim Jesus Christ to those who want to hear about Him without having to join a church – or anything else – but Him.

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88 Responses to There Is No Trinity; There Is Only Christ

  1. Dear Sir,

    Trinity is never mention in Biblical and never found it in any version. but Trinity I found it Quran as per below, there was a lot of verse but I minimize the number:

    “171. O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. ”
    Quran, Surah 4. Women

    73. They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.
    Quran, Surah 5. The Table, The Table Spread

    85. And Zakariya and John(, and Jesus and Elias: all in the ranks of the righteous:
    Quran, Surah 6. Cattle, Livestock

    30. He said: “I am indeed a servant of Allah. He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet; 31. “And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live; 32. “(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable; 33. “So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)”! 34. Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. 35. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, “Be”, and it is.
    Quran, Surah 19. Mary (mother of Jesus)

    30. The Jews call ‘Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah.s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! 31. They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah. there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).
    Quran, Surah 9. Repentance, Dispensation

    • Mike Gantt says:

      While the Trinity is a false concept, Muhammad and the Quran present something more false. At least the Trinity concept recognizes the truths that Jesus of Nazareth is the Son of God and that He is divine (What I Like About the Trinity Concept). This is more than can be said for Muhammad and the Quran.

      Anyone who claims to speak for God and yet does not honor Jesus Christ above all is not speaking for God.

      • Dear Mike,

        Thank you for your reply, may God bless you as true believers and follower of Jesus son of Mary (pbuh), which is believe to God is one, and May God shows you the right path as God show to Jesus (pbuh) and other prophet of Israel.

        Is it prophet Moses (pbuh) is also talking to God when he received Torah at Mount Sinai? Then Moses also does not honor Jesus, son of Mary (pbuh) because Moses (pbuh) also speak to God. Moses (pbuh) meet God because he want to received 1 of 4 highest book in Islam, Torah. Muhammad (pbuh) talk to God to received worshiping commandment (prayer, or Solah is Arabic).

        17. “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.18. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.19. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
        [Matthew 5 : 17 – 19]

        Is it Jesus said that he come to world to fulfill Law of Moses, ie Ten Commandment. And in Ten Commandment also said I am the Lord your God and also You shall not make for yourself an idol (In this content, trinity). Which the statement that I also think you also believe.

        As one of our greatest prophet, Jesus, son of Mary (pbuh), which in the ranks of the righteous. May I know which verse in Quran that we speak ill about Jesus, son of Mary (pbuh). This is very important for me to understand my religion clearly.

        Hifzan Shafiee

    • Anonymous says:

      that makes me beleive in the trinity even more

  2. Mike Gantt says:

    Hifzan, may God bless you as well.

    Yes, Moses spoke with God on Mount Sinai and received the Torah.  Moses honored Jesus and spoke of Him, just as Jesus confirmed in John 5:46:

    “For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for He wrote about Me.”

    Here is an example of Moses writing about Jesus in the Torah (from Deuteronomy 18:15):

    “The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him.”

    In this passage Moses was prophesying of the time that Jesus would come to redeem all mankind from its sinfulness.  There are many other places where Moses speaks of Jesus.  For example, the Passover feast itself is a representation of Christ (1 Corinthians 5:7).  Moses so honored Jesus that he forsook the glory and security of political leadership in Egypt in order to bear the shame of being associated with Christ (Hebrews 11:25-27).

    You and I agree that the Trinity is an idol and not to be worshiped.  We also agree that Jesus affirmed the importance of Torah.  Where we are different is that Jesus interpreted the Torah differently from Moses – that is, Jesus interpreted the Torah according to the spirit and not to the flesh.  Thus Moses was a man of blood but Jesus is the Prince of Peace.  It’s not that Moses’ interpretation was wrong, it’s that Jesus’ interpretation is better.  Moses interpretation was for a time and applied only to ancient Israel.  Jesus’ interpretation is eternal and applies to every human being.

    As for where the Quran speaks wrongly of Christ, I quote from your own references above:

    “Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah”

    Jesus was indeed an apostle from God…but so much more!  That the Quran exalts Muhammad instead of Jesus is its great shame.

    You asked about your religion.  Religion does us no good in the sight of God.  It is no better to be a Christian than to be a Muslim than to be a Jew than to be an atheist that to be anything else.  God looks on our hearts, not our skin or our religious affiliations.  Religion Is Corruptible but God Isn’t.

    Do not look to religion.  Do not look to people.  Look only to God.  If you do, He will show you that He came to earth as Jesus of Nazareth and now reigns supreme once again and forever over all the nations.  Let us repent and live for Him alone!

     

  3. Dear Mike,

    After reading some of your others articles, I understand that you believe that Jesus, son of Mary is God itself. It different from what Trinity are as what I understand in Christianity and I miss that point when I wrote my 2nd comment.

    It almost same as Buddhism and Hinduism, even they are believe to one God, they also believe to to Buddha and other human character (Kali, Vishnu and etc) as a God. I mistaken it at first glance, that you believe to one God. What are the different from their (Buddhism and Hinduism) believe and your believe, fundamentally same.

    Story of Abraham, when he is young, he beheaded all statue, to protest the polytheism and paganism which is believe to many God. This story also contradicted with Trinity and Jesus as God.

    First of All, Moses came to children of Israel, born of by Children of Israel mothers, raise by pharaoh who are claim he is God itself (human who claim him as God). After few years, Moses come back to Egypt to fight back with Pharaoh who claiming him a God itself. Moses is not agreed with “Human is God”, as what you believe currently.

    You also contradicted with 1 item in Ten Commandment “I am the Lord your God and also You shall not make for yourself an idol” (In this content, trinity and yourself claim Jesus, son of Mary is God)

    Yourself also contradicted with [Matthew 5 : 17 – 19].

    Do talk to Quran itself, with your own Bible also contradicted. But I hope you read Quran as a whole books, even you not agree with Quran, just read it. I hope you can find something in there.

    Thank You,

    Hifzan Shafiee

  4. Mike Gantt says:

    Hifzan,

    Jesus is a descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is the fulfillment of the great and precious promises God made to those patriarchs. Buddhism and Hinduism do not make such claims.

    Yes, Abraham stood strong against idols. However, you should recognize that Jesus was not fashioned by hand of man, but rather by the hand of God. Therefore, Jesus cannot be an idol.

    Yes, Moses fought against Pharaoh who claimed to be God. However, you should recognize that Jesus never claimed to be God before His contemporaries. He only claimed to be sent by God. He lived as a man when He was on the earth. He lived humbly and peaceably. This Pharaoh did not do. Jesus did not reign as God again until He was raised from the dead and ascended into heaven. It was at that time that worship of Him became appropriate for all.

    There is no contradiction between worshiping Jesus and obeying the commandment to not make idols because, as I said above, we did not make Jesus – God did.

    If the Quran did not contradict the Bible on important points – most importantly about the supremacy of Jesus – I would be more interested in reading it.

    You strike me as a person of peace. If so, examine the words and life of Jesus in the gospels (especially the gospel of John). See if you are drawn to Jesus. I was.

  5. Dear Mike,

    I am not strike you out, I just give my opinion and my beliefs,

    Jesus is a descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. {We also belief}
    Yes, Abraham stood strong against idols. {We also belief}
    Yes, Moses fought against Pharaoh who claimed to be God. {We also belief}

    From all you statement, you are already know Jesus, son of Mary is actually human being, that being sent to human, as apostle ,or prophet same as Abraham, Moses, David, Zakeriya, Isaac, John the Baptist. And you reading Bible thoroughly. Not all Christian read Bible thoroughly (poor them, just heard what Father said during Sunday).

    Dear Mike,

    You just not agree with supremacy of Jesus only over Muhammad, but others you quite agree with me. Actually in Quran itself, (i think you never read yet), there was a lot story of Jesus, son of Mary, Mary itself, how Mary defend herself after Jesus birth, death of Jesus, Jesus being raise to Sky by God, Jesus will come down again to earth to save humanity. Moses and others prophet of Israel. Miracles of Jesus, son of Mary, raise the death people, make blind people can see again, make a scattered piece of dove live and fly again, bring down a food from heaven to his 12 follower (Hawariyun), and others.

    You think we don’t know and do not believe it. This story have been told to us Muslim, 1400 years ago, in Quran, almost 5% of its tell about Jesus and prophet of Israel (I think more). We, Muslim, must believe Jesus, son of Mary is one of GREATEST (if I can bold this) prophet that ever live, along Abraham, Moses, David, and others prophet of Israel. In Quran itself, there was a lot of message to people of Israel and people who understand Gospel (Injil). This is what I said to you, you need to read Quran, may be just to have additional knowledge about Islam. Actually we also drawn to Jesus. I was in different way.

    Dear Mike,

    That why I never offense regarding Jesus, unless you say Jesus is God, Trinity or etc which is I totally not agreed. You said “He only claimed to be sent by God”, then why you said he is God after return to earth. Is it not contradicted with top statement? When A Judgement Day, Jesus shall become God and judge the sin of Abraham, Moses, Isaac, Jacob, David, Solomon and their believer which is Jews and Abraham Faith. A descendant in World and become their God in After Life. Is it not contradict to you?

    Thank you, its good for me understand your point of view, nice blogging with you, (but I need to sleep, if you reply this, I try to reply tomorrow again, I live in other side of worlds)

    Bye,

    Hifzan Shafiee

    • Mike Gantt says:

      Hifzan,

      I am glad that Quran teaches you about Jesus.  However, while Quran may be 5% about Jesus, the Bible is 100% about Jesus (The Bible Is the Book of Jesus).

      I am not suggesting that you exchange Islam for Christianity.  That would do you no good.  What will do you good is trusting Jesus and living like Him.

      The Second Coming of Christ, to which you refer, has already occurred.  Jesus came the first time as a man; He came the second time as God.  That’s why no one “saw” it.  The kingdom of God is here now…and always will be.

      Jesus saves people now, but it is a salvation of the soul, not of our circumstances.

      It is not enough that Muhammad and the Quran say nice things about Jesus.   Christians say nice things about Jesus, too, but that is not enough either.  What matters is trusting and obeying Jesus.  That brings true peace and happiness in the human soul.

      As for the afterlife, everyone is going to heaven.  However, judgment is upon us so we need to give heed to God and obey His commandments through Jesus.

      I do not have a religion to give you.  I am just telling you about Jesus.  Please read the gospel of John if you want to know more about Him.

      • tfoster says:

        John 8: 23 Jesus continued, You are from below; I am from above. You belong to this world; I do not. 24 That is why I said that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I Am who I claim to be, you will die in your sins

        John 11:25
        Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;

        John 13:19
        “I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am who I am

        John 8:24
        I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.

        but yet we will all go to heaven…something is terribly wrong with this picture. :-( might as well say there is no hell since Everyone is going to heaven but we know there is a hell.

    • ShailinR says:

      Hi Hifzan,

      I disagree with Mike Gantt. I have made several posts to Mike Gantt and he has replied to them. Please do go through our correspondence and see if it is helpful to you.

      ShailinR

  6. donteattrash says:

    Trinity is the building blocks of existence. If everything is relational, if everything is destined and designed for intimate unity (which i believe it is, hence why sin is so destructive) then the basis of it has to be holy (perfect relationality) unity. The genesis poem begins with in the beginning there was a plural God. But no where do we find backing for more then one God. So therefore there is an inference that the one God is somehow so perfectly communal that they/he/it is ONE. Look at water (which from your post is an example from nature) Water is both liquid, solid (ice) and gas (mist). mist s defs not a solid, ice is defs not a liquid but all three are water. they all have their different roles they all have their different reasons but they are all unified in their waterness. Trinity doesn’t push us further from christ, for christ was an is the physical blood sweat and tears triune member who adopts us into the trinity community (eph and col 1) Father and son pictures that the bible uses don’t make sense if father and son are the same. Father has his role, son has his role and holy spirit defs has his role. but they are all God. they are all one. they are all the omni’s. Trinity not only supports the unification of existence it exemplifies it for us making more sense that we are designed for community but vulnerable intimacy which can be seen in the echos of sex and family.

    i like you a lot. i love your commitment to truth and world change. and im so curious that i plan to read a lot more of what you write. im curious your thoughts on church. I don’t have the experience you have but i have grown up the son of a pastor.

    hope your day is excellent.

    DET

    • Mike Gantt says:

      As you have time, reflect on these two statements and note their contrasting viewpoints:

      “Trinity is the building block of existence,” (yours) and “Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone” (Ephesians 2:20 KJV).

      I hope your day is excellent, too.

  7. tiffytiff says:

    The Trinity is mentioned in the Bible -

    Matthew 28:19 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit…

  8. Mike Gantt says:

    tiffytiff,

    That’s a reference to three names, but there’s no mention of “trinity” nor is there any instruction that we should relate those names to each other in a philosophical construct. If it were, then any verse that mentioned the Father and the Son, or God and Jesus, would be an instruction to create a philosophical construct of “binity.” And there are a lot more verses that mention the two than mention the three – a lot more. So, then we’d have an argument about whether to believe in the binity or the trinity.

    Better to just take the Scriptures as they’re given to us and not add in man-made ideas like trinity and binity.

  9. Pete says:

    I believe that God is a Family in as much as there is a Father and a Son. If you read the greetings of Paul in all of his episles he says something along these lines: “Grace and peace to you through God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ”. So you are correct when you say that there is no trinity, but incorrect when you say that they are one in the same. Who rose Jesus from the dead? God the Father did. The Holy Spirit is just the communion that they have together with each other. So I call it a Binity instead of trinity…

  10. Mike Gantt says:

    Pete, you’re at least going in the right direction. When you get to one, you’ll be done.

  11. Bob Freeman says:

    If one were to believe that the trinity does not exist then he would need to explain away Matthew 3:17 or Luke 3:22, along with many other verses.

    • Mike Gantt says:

      You should take another look at those two passages. Closer inspection will reveal to you that the word “trinity” does not appear in them (nor anywhere else in the Bible, for that matter). Neither does the phrase “three persons in one being” appear in them (because that would be illogical). Nor is there any mention of “God the Son” or “God the Holy Spirit.” Thus you are reading these two verses through “trinity glasses.” If you will take off those glasses – that is, stop adding to the word of God – you will realize that these passages in no way teach what you are suggesting.

      See Posts to Date on the Trinity Versus Christ for better, simpler, and more biblical explanations of God.

  12. tfoster says:

    If Jesus himself was Not God in the flesh and trinity does not exist then What do these verses mean?

    John 6:35
    Then Jesus declared, I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.
    It just seems that if he were a mere man he would not have a ability to promise this.
    John 8: 23 Jesus continued, You are from below; I AM FROM ABOVE.. You belong to this world; i DO NOT. 24 That is why I said that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I Am who I claim to be, you will die in your sins.
    25 Who are you? they demanded.
    Jesus replied, The one I have always claimed to be. 26 I have much to say about you and much to condemn, but I won’t. For I say only what I have heard from the one who sent me, and he is completely truthful. 27 But they still didn’t understand that he was talking about his Father.
    (Just like back then people still don’t understand. )
    28 So Jesus said,When you have lifted up the Son of Man on the cross, then you will understand that? I AM HE. I do nothing on my own but say only what the Father TAUGHT me. 29 And the one who sent me is with me he has not deserted me. For I always do what pleases him. 30 Then many who heard him say these things believed in him.
    John 10:7
    Therefore Jesus said again, Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep
    John 10:11
    “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
    John 10:14
    “I am the good shepherd; I KNOW my sheep and my sheep KNOW me
    John 11:25
    Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;

    John 13:19
    “I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am who I am

    (a very common theme here Jesus used the words I am alot…he wants us to know who he is.)
    John 8:24
    I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.
    ( who is this he that he is asking you to believe he is? God in flesh or man in flesh good enough to attone for your sins?)
    John 8:12
    [ Dispute Over Jesus’ Testimony ] When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said,I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.
    Mark 14:62
    I am,said Jesus. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.

    If Jesus was just stating to be alone the son of God, his messiah that the jews new was going to come then why all the fuss..no he was claiming to be something more. God in human flesh.

    I see same characteristics in OT as Jesus
    Isaiah 43:3
    For I am the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel, YOUR SAVIOR;
    Isaiah 43:10
    You are my witnesses, declares the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.

    ( makes me think of when Jesus said “I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he.”)
    Isaiah 43:13
    Yes, and from ancient days I am he. No one can deliver out of my hand. When I act, who can reverse it
    Isaiah 43:25
    I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more
    Isaiah 48:17
    This is what the LORD says your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel:I am the LORD your God, who teaches you what is best for you, who directs you in the way you should go
    Isaiah 60:22
    The least of you will become a thousand, the smallest a mighty nation. I am the LORD; in its time I will do this swiftly.

    Exodus 3:14 God said to moses I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Isrealites “I AM has sent me to you!”
    John 8:54
    “I tell you the truth” Jesus awnsered, “Before Abraham was born, I am!” At this, they picked up stones to stone him but he left the temple

    Even Jesus himself declared to be I AM!
    I am king of kings and Lord of Lords
    Revelation 17:14
    1 timothy 6:13-15
    I am the First and the Last, I am the living one, I was dead, and behonld I am for ever and ever!
    Revelation 22 17-18
    Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, The beginnign and the end.
    But how could a mere man (jesus) be all this…its blashemey against GOD unless he was what he is claiming to be.
    Revelation 22:12-13
    He who testifies to these things says “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
    Revelation 22:20
    These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.
    Revelation 2:8
    Listen to me, O Jacob, Isreal, whom I have called, I am he, I am the first and I am the last.”
    Isaiah 48:12
    This is what the Lord says- Isreal’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”
    Isaiah 44:6
    you are my witnesses. Declares teh Lord ‘and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and beleive me and understand that I am he. Before me no God was formed nor will there be one after me. I even I, am the Lord and apart from me there is no savior.”

    Jesus is either God or hes not savior…how can a man atone for sins…all men have fallen short of the glory of God and have sinned therefore if Jesus was not God he would have fallen short and sinned.
    Isaiah 43:10-11
    In Revelation 1:7-8 the Lord God (Jehovah) states He is the Alpha and Omega. Yet in the same verse the speaker, God (Jehovah) says He was pierced. Who was it that was actually piereced? Jesus. In rev 22:12-20 it is Jesus who claims he is the Alpha and Omega. In Isaiah 48:12 and 44:6 God, Jehovah says he is hte first and the last. yet again in rev 2:8 Jesus says he is the first and the last. Finally both God Jehovah and Jesus are described as “coming soon”.

    This is what the Lord says, your redeemer, who formed you in the womb, I am the Lord, who has made all things, who alone strechted out the heavens, who spread out the earth myself.
    Isaiah 44:24
    Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth, for I am God, and there is not other. By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all intergrity a word that will not be revoked; before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear.”
    I am the way, the truth and the light

    and lets not forget John 1:1 says that “the Word was God.” John 1:14 says that “the Word became flesh.” This clearly indicates that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, “…Be shepherds of the church of God, which He bought with His own blood.” Who bought the church with His own blood? Jesus Christ. Acts 20:28 declares that God purchased the church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God!

    Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, “Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior – Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, “But about the Son He says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.”

    In Revelation, an angel instructed the Apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship (Matthew 2:11; 14:33; 28:9,17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. If Jesus were not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation had. There are many other verses and passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus and his identity of being God in flesh.

    See trinity cannot be understood because people refuse to see Jesus as God, they see him as just a man and Im sorry but I cannot place my faith in a Man, to me he is either just a man and there for no messiah has come yet, or he is God himself in flesh. People can understand the holy spirit and his workings, they know Yahweh but they refuse to acknowledge Jesus as God because they would then have to conclude that all there are one and work for the same goal. I don’t care about what this book of this says, or what some creed says about history, Gods word is alive and was written and I refuse to believe that God himself would let his kids run rampid preaching error when this believe is the most widely taught don’t you think God is Powerful enough, and has grace and mercy enough to teach ones that he loves the truth….he did..the fact is the big fat liar (satan) has come through and started disorting truth…I am not catholic or really of any denomination, I beleive and study the word of God and when someone came telling me that Jesus is not God I started to dig deep and I have found and been assured of my salvation through Jesus my God, Yahweh my savior that i am a soul assured of my salvation. He loved me enough before he made himself known to me, he loved me even the more after dying for me that I can trust in him to teach me the truth and he has.

    • ShailinR says:

      To TFoster, Hifzan Shafiee, and Mike Gantt:

      Yes, the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Trinity is false, by saying that Jesus is equal to the Father and that they are one and the same being. But so is saying that Jesus is the Father, as Mike and TFoster have said. This is merely a variation on a theme. Jesus is the Son of God, he is not the Father, the only true God, the Almighty.

      • Mike Gantt says:

        The Son must be barren? He cannot have children? What then did He mean when He said, “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you”?

        • ShailinR says:

          You are either being deceitful or have not understood the Gospel message.

          Please read 1 Corinthians 4:14-21 KJV:

          14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.

          15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

          16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

          Paul says he is a spiritual father.

          Is he now then God Almighty?

          Jesus may be known as father in this sense.Jesus also says that the Father dwells in him. It is therefore in this sense also that the term may be used, as clearly if Jesus ‘comes to you’, it is Jesus and the Father dwelling within him who comes to you.

          Incidentally, the KJV renders ‘orphans’ as ‘comfortless’, the meaning ‘orphanos’ can also mean ‘deprived’. It can mean ‘fatherless’ as well, but what does it mean in the context of the chapter?

          John 14:10 Kjv:

          10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

          John 14:16 Kjv:

          16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

          John 14:18 Kjv:

          18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

          John 14:20-26 Kjv:

          20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

          21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

          22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

          23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

          24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.

          25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

          26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

          Please pay particular attention to the words ‘Father’,’Son’, ‘my’ and ‘we’- and their usage.

          How does Jesus say that he ‘will sit at the right hand of Power’, if he himself is that Power?? How does Jesus say ‘The Father is greater than I’, if he is the Father??

          It’s time you read the scriptures properly and with a right thinking, and stop spreading a false Gospel.I am not surprised Hifzan is confused with your explanations. This false thinking is deterring many from turning over to God through His Son our Lord Jesus Christ.

          • Mike Gantt says:

            I am neither deceitful nor am I lacking understanding on the truths about which I have written. There are many things about which I am ignorant, and many things which I do not understand, but I do not write blog posts about these things. I only write about what I have come to understand through reading and studying the Scriptures.

            You need to consider some things that you may not have considered so far. For example:

            Jesus was made to sit at the right hand of God not forever, but only until when? Until His enemies were made a footstool for His feet (see Psalm 110). What would happen then?

            What did Jesus’ mean when He said He would come in the glory of His Father? Was this at all related to Isaiah’s prophecy that “all the glory of His Father’s house would be hung upon Him” (Isaiah 22:24, italics added)?

            What did Isaiah mean when he wrote that Jesus would be called “the Eternal Father” (Isaiah 9:6)?

            The most important thing you need to do is to give your heart fully to Christ (2 Corinthians 11:3). Trust Him. Obey Him. Love Him. Only through Him will we ever come to understand the Father (see Matthew 11:27; John 14:6-9; 1 John 2:23; 2 John 1:9.

            • ShailinR says:

              I note that you did not answer any of my questions- and in particular, that you did not address my answer to the question you yourself had raised. May I assume by your silence that you have no answers?

              However, to answer your new questions:

              Re Psalm 110, Paul answers this in 1 Corinthians 15:23-28 Kjv succinctly. Please note vs 27 and 28

              23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

              24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

              25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

              26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

              27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

              28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

              Need I go on?

              Your point about Isaiah 9:6- Jesus, the apostles and the early church fathers (eg Irenaeus) all used the Septuagint LXX, not the MT.In the Septuagint, ‘Everlasting Father’ (or ‘Eternal Father’/Heavenly Father in some other translations) is rendered as ‘Messenger of Great Councel’. However, Jesus is now ‘eternal’, and in the sense described earlier in my last post to you, it may be applied, but not in the sense of him being the Father God Almighty.

              John 14:6-9 is answered in the 10th verse: ‘…the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.’

              As for 1 John 2:23 – Now this is important. Don’t you see that you are denying the Son AND the Father if you are saying that both are ‘each other’? You are saying that Jesus is God Almighty. By saying this you are DENYING the testimony the Son gives about himself, and in turn the testimony he gives about his Father.In denying this testimony you are denying the Father. You have created an altogether different being.What you have done is to create a being no different from the roman catholic trinity you despise! It’s time to wake up! This is how the satan operates- he creates what appears to be division amongst the churches-with each thinking they are following the truth, when in fact he has united virtually all of them in a false religion.

              You referred to revelation. study ity carefully and you will see that the Lamb of God takes the book from the Father’s hand. You will also see that Jesus says he has a God.The 24 elders are worshipping God Almighty, not Jesus. You will also see that later Jesus joins God the Father, in the midst of the throne.And why not? He is seated at God’s right hand.

              • Mike Gantt says:

                You apparently do not believe that the day of the Lord has come. See Jesus Christ Has Already Come Again and All Bible Prophecy Has Been Fulfilled in Christ. As long as you think that the Lord’s promises regarding His coming have not been fulfilled, then you are going to continue to be confused about the purpose of the Father-Son paradigm. More importantly, don’t you realize that if the promises of the New Testament regarding the coming of the new age have not been fulfilled that the entire Bible collapses because it would mean Jesus was a false prophet and the God of Israel could not keep His promises regarding a Messiah? I’ll say it again: if the kingdom of God has not already come our faith is worthless and we are all lost.

                • ShailinR says:

                  I see, so we have already have a new heavens and a new Earth, every eye has seen the one whom they pierced, and the moon and stars have fallen from the sky.Oh, and the devil and all his angels are destroyed, there will be no more tears and Judgement has occurred. I must have been sleeping.

                  Are you still going to avoid answering my questions? How many times do I have to put them to you?

                  • Mike Gantt says:

                    Paul says he is a spiritual father.  Is he now then God Almighty?

                    No.

                    Incidentally, the KJV renders ‘orphans’ as ‘comfortless’, the meaning ‘orphanos’ can also mean ‘deprived’. It can mean ‘fatherless’ as well, but what does it mean in the context of the chapter?

                    If you ask most people what the word “orphan” means, they’ll say parentless.  If you want to say that the word has a different meaning in this context, it’s incumbent upon you to demonstrate it.

                    How does Jesus say that he ‘will sit at the right hand of Power’, if he himself is that Power??

                    He wasn’t that power at the time he spoke those words.

                    How does Jesus say ‘The Father is greater than I’, if he is the Father??

                    He wasn’t the Father at the time he spoke those words; he was the Son.

                    I note that you did not answer any of my questions- and in particular, that you did not address my answer to the question you yourself had raised. May I assume by your silence that you have no answers?

                    It’s not always clear when your questions are intended to be rhetorical and when you’re actually seeking a response from me.  And, no, it would not be wise for you to assume that if I do not give an answer to some particular question of yours that I have no answer for it.

                    Need I go on?

                    Actually, you did need to go on.  This was one of your questions that I answered, which you did not recognize.  Recall that if you are saying that this passage from Paul has not been fulfilled then you and I have bigger problems than a disagreement about the Father and the Son.

                    By the way, your explanation of Isaiah 9:6 is misleading.  While it’s true that the apostles often relied on the LXX, it’s not appropriate to say that they had no access whatsoever to the Hebrew texts which we see later reflected in the MT.  At best, your explanation is possible – not definitive.  Moreover, why would 2 Corinthians 6:18 say “I will be a father to you” (i.e. speak in the future tense of fatherhood) if the fatherhood in view was already existent?

                    John 14:10 gave some understanding to the disciples in that moment, but there was much more to be revealed about Christ than that.  Consider these NT verses which themselves speak of revelation of Christ to come: 1 Corinthians 1:7; Colossians 3:4; 1 Peter 1:7, 13; 5:1.

                    Regarding 1 John 2:23, you are arguing against a straw man.  As I’ve told you, you find the Father by holding fast to the Son.  It doesn’t work the other way around.  2 John 1:9 confirms this.  And other scriptures do as well.

                    You really shouldn’t try to interpret the book of Revelation until you are more spiritually mature.  In the meantime, however, I call your attention to the opening and closing chapters which mention seven times that the time of the book’s events was near.  If they were near-term in the late first-century, then must be long-term past by now.  If you are not willing to believe these straightforward statements, why should you believe any of the rest of it?

                    • ShailinR says:

                      I will respond to your statements in turn. While I do that, let us keep in mind the words of Paul:

                      1 Corinthians 14:33 KJV

                      33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

                      You have now acknowledged that when Paul says he is a spiritual father that he does not mean he is the Father God Almighty. Well done. Therefore, even if the word ‘orphanos’ was used by the writers of the New Testament intentionally to mean ‘fatherless’, and that Christ wished to imply that meaning, we know that it would mean Christ was speaking in the same sense as Paul above as I explained in my previous posts. Why? BECAUSE JESUS SAYS HE HAS A FATHER AND THAT THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN HIM.Jesus says that he has a God. He says this God is his God and our God.

                      God is not the author of confusion.

                      In your last post you say “He wasn’t the Father at the time he spoke those words; he was the Son.”

                      Really? If so, how does Jesus say that he goes to the Father and will return with the Father?

                      Please explain the following:

                      John 12:27-30 KJV

                      27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

                      28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

                      29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.

                      30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.

                      At what stage then, according to your reasoning, did Jesus become God the Father Almighty? When did he change back? Or was he a master ventrilloquist? Who said the words in vs 28?
                      (In case you are wondering, these are not rhetorical questions)

                      I direct you once again to 1 Corinthians 15:23-28. Please read it this time.

                      You said in your last post

                      “As I’ve told you, you find the Father by holding fast to the Son. It doesn’t work the other way around.”

                      Please read:

                      John 6:44 KJV

                      44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

                      Luke 10:22 KJV

                      22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

                      I have always believed in God. He drew me to his Son Jesus. His Son revealed God’s nature and His laws to me to me.What has your answer above got to do with my earlier question, when I asked in my earlier post “How does Jesus say that he ‘will sit at the right hand of Power’, if he himself is that Power??” ?

                      You say that Revelation has already been fulfilled.I suggest you read Revelation before you comment on it. I don’t recall mankind and the earth nearly being wiped out anytime in the past 2000 years.

                      Mark 13:10 KJV

                      10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

                      The Gospel has still not reached all humanity. Nearly, but not yet.

                      According to you, this happened around first century AD. Am I correct in assuming you are saying this?

                      2 Peter 3:8 KJV

                      8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

                    • Mike Gantt says:

                      I will respond to your statements in turn. While I do that, let us keep in mind the words of Paul:  1 Corinthians 14:33 KJV

                      You like 1 Corinthians 14:33.  So do I.

                      You have now acknowledged that when Paul says he is a spiritual father that he does not mean he is the Father God Almighty. Well done. Therefore, even if the word ‘orphanos’ was used by the writers of the New Testament intentionally to mean ‘fatherless’, and that Christ wished to imply that meaning, we know that it would mean Christ was speaking in the same sense as Paul above as I explained in my previous posts. Why? BECAUSE JESUS SAYS HE HAS A FATHER AND THAT THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN HIM.  Jesus says that he has a God.  He says this God is his God and our God.

                      Yes, that was because Jesus was a man at the time.  He wasn’t a man before that time (that is, He pre-existed).  Nor is He a man now.  Even in the New Testament, Paul wrote, “though we have known Christ in the flesh, we know Him thus no longer” (2 Corinthians 5:16).

                      God is not the author of confusion.

                      You quote “God is not the author of confusion” and yet you profess belief in the Trinity?

                      In your last post you say “He wasn’t the Father at the time he spoke those words; he was the Son.”  Really? If so, how does Jesus say that he goes to the Father and will return with the Father?

                      That was His perception at the time.

                      Please explain the following:

                      John 12:27-30 KJV

                      Jesus was speaking to God.

                      At what stage then, according to your reasoning, did Jesus become God the Father Almighty? When did he change back?

                      As I’ve said before, at the coming of the kingdom of God.  (See Jesus Christ Has Already Come Again and Jesus Christ Is God.)

                      Or was he a master ventriloquist? Who said the words in vs 28?

                      Jesus was a man at the time these words were spoken, and unaware that He was God.  If He had been aware that He was God, He would not have truly been a man – because no human being can “know he is God.”  If you are a Trinitarian you have a much harder time explaining this passage than I do.

                      I direct you once again to 1 Corinthians 15:23-28. Please read it this time.

                      I’ve read it many times – and carefully.  When he says “that God may be all in all” he is referring to the union of Christ and God such that calling on Christ is calling on God and calling on God is calling on Christ.  The whole new creation is summed up in Christ (Ephesians 1:10).  This is the age in which we live.

                      You said in your last post

                      “As I’ve told you, you find the Father by holding fast to the Son. It doesn’t work the other way around.”  Please read:  John 6:44 KJV [and] Luke 10:22 KJV.

                      Jews in that age who knew the Father were drawn by Him to the Son.  We who live in this age are drawn to the Son, but without having to come by means of the Mosaic Law.

                      Even the Luke 10:22 passage that you quote, however, states that no one truly knows the Father except through revelation by the Son.

                      I have always believed in God. He drew me to his Son Jesus. His Son revealed God’s nature and His laws to me to me.What has your answer above got to do with my earlier question, when I asked in my earlier post “How does Jesus say that he ‘will sit at the right hand of Power’, if he himself is that Power??” ?

                      I told you.  He sat at the right hand until He received His own throne.  At the right hand, He was king of Israel, but at the coming of the kingdom He became King of the Universe.

                      You say that Revelation has already been fulfilled.I suggest you read Revelation before you comment on it. I don’t recall mankind and the earth nearly being wiped out anytime in the past 2000 years.

                      Again, you are imposing literal meanings on spiritual words.  Moreover, if Revelation is not fulfilled by now it is false prophecy, because it claimed its fulfillment was near.

                      The Gospel has still not reached all humanity. Nearly, but not yet.

                      You contradict Paul.  See Romans 1:8 and Colossians 1:6.

                      According to you, this happened around first century AD. Am I correct in assuming you are saying this?

                      2 Peter 3:8 KJV

                      8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

                      You should have kept reading.  The very next sentence says “The Lord is not slow about His promise.”  Moreover, Jesus promised in Matthew 24-25 that everything associated with His coming would occur in that generation.

                      These are not my ideas; they are His.

                  • Mike Gantt says:

                    I see, so we have already have a new heavens and a new Earth, every eye has seen the one whom they pierced, and the moon and stars have fallen from the sky.Oh, and the devil and all his angels are destroyed, there will be no more tears and Judgement has occurred. I must have been sleeping.

                    Indeed you have been. This is why the scripture says such things as “Awake, sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you,” (Ephesians 5:14) and that “when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away” (2 Corinthians 3:16).

                    See 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 and Hebrews 5:11-14 to focus on what it means to move from infancy to maturity, from a fleshly orientation to a spiritual one. The central direction that Jesus brought to the Scriptures was to turn our attention from their physical application to their spiritual application. Growth in the Lord is not a matter of academic prowess, rather it is a matter of hearing the word of God and doing it. As we act on what we understand, He gives us more understanding. If we don’t act on what we understand…well, that’s not good. That’s where the Pharisees ended up. They said things and did not do them.

                    • ShailinR says:

                      Before reading 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 I assume you read 1 Corinthians 1:1-13?

                      1 Corinthians 1:1-13 KJV:

                      1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

                      2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their’s and our’s:

                      3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

                      4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

                      5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;

                      6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

                      7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

                      8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

                      9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

                      10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

                      11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

                      12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

                      13 Is Christ divided?

                      Please read every line carefully. God is not the author of confusion.

                    • Mike Gantt says:

                      If you claim to adhere to this passage, tell me, please, of which church are you a part?

                    • ShailinR says:

                      BTW, I must say that what you said on August 5,2012 at 5.33pm in response to the statement I made in my earlier post is an all-time Classic.

                    • ShailinR says:

                      In your post of the August 6, 2012 at 10.53am, you asked of which church I am a member.I already stated in my post on August 5,2012 at 1:04 pm that the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Trinity is false. And so is what you are saying. You are saying that Jesus is the Father, the God Almighty. This is in essence the same as the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Trinity.

                      Both are the doctrine of the antichrist. You are denying the testimony the Son gives about himself and about his father. So in turn you are denying the Father and the Son and instead are worshipping a false god. The Father Almighty is the true God and Jesus is His Son. And Jesus is still His Son, eventhough Jesus is with Him in heaven. Read Revelation 3:12. Jesus in his glorified state still has a God- Jesus says so! God is not the author of confusion- and you are certainly confused, judging by your posts.

                      You ask of what church I am a member. I am a member of the body of Christ. Christ is the head of the church, and God the Father is the head of Christ.

                    • Mike Gantt says:

                      You say that you are of the body of Christ, but the Roman Catholic Church says the same thing. The church in the New Testament was truly one body of many members. Today’s church, by contrast, is many bodies with many members. Why is that?

                    • ShailinR says:

                      You say in your post of August 6, 2012 at 10.52am that:

                      “Jesus was a man at the time these words were spoken, and unaware that He was God. If He had been aware that He was God, He would not have truly been a man – because no human being can “know he is God.” ”

                      But he remembered his position in John 6:62, didn’t he?

                      What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? John 6:62 KJV

                      Strange that he still called himself the Son of God, and still said he has a God, his Father, that he was sent by the Father and that what he does always pleases his Father.When Jesus asked Peter who people thought he was, Peter replied “You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God”.Jesus replied that it was the Father in heaven who revealed it to Peter. (Matthew 16:16-17). It is upon this rock of faith that Christ has built his church.

                      You also said in your post:

                      “Jews in that age who knew the Father were drawn by Him to the Son. We who live in this age are drawn to the Son, but without having to come by means of the Mosaic Law.”

                      What about all the Gentiles in that age and this age, who the Father draws to the Son, who had no experience of the Mosaic Law?

                      And as for your laughable explanation of John 12:27-30…. well.. enough said.

                    • Mike Gantt says:

                      You are still thinking and acting as if the kingdom of God did not come when Jesus said it would. Do you not realize that if the kingdom has not come then we don’t have the new heavens and new earth? This means that everyone who dies goes below to Sheol (Hades) when they die just as they did throughout biblical times. That is, if you don’t believe that we live in the day of the Lord, then only Jesus has gone to heaven – no one has followed Him. He’s up there all by Himself.

                      See The Biblical Case for Everyone Going to Heaven.

    • ShailinR says:

      To TFoster,

      I disagree with Mike Gantt but I also do not believe in the Roman Catholic Trinity. I have made several posts to Mike Gantt and he has replied to them. Please do go through our correspondence to see why.I will also explain what Thomas means when he says ‘My Lord and my God’ if you want me to, but I do not think it will be necessary.

      ShailinR

  13. Mike Gantt says:

    You haven’t read me very carefully. See Jesus Christ Is God.

  14. RonFCCC says:

    Mike, your approach to this issue seems to be summed up in your statement, “Three persons co-existing as one being is a nonsensical concept.” And yet, it is a concept held, if not fully understood, by the vast majority of Christians, their ministers, and their scholars, over the past two thousand years. That makes me wonder why an infinitely wise God would be so maladroit in His self-presentation in the Bible as to allow millions of sincere believers to get the wrong impression about His nature, while the truth is evident only to a few such as yourself. Isn’t it possible that the trinity seeming a nonsensical concept to your mind is more a comment on your ability to understand than on the intrinsic truth of the concept itself?

    • Mike Gantt says:

      Ron, the trinity concept of God is unscriptural as well as nonsensical. If you’re going to say that it is the truth, you are going to have to come up with the scriptural case for the doctrine. If you sincerely pursue this, you will find the the Scriptures do not teach it. You are putting your faith in the numbers of people who profess allegiance to the doctrine instead of trusting the Scriptures.

      Moreover, by your logic all of Christianity is to be rejected because, to use your words, it renders God as so maladroit in his presentation as to allow millions of Jews for thousands of years to miss their own Messiah.

      • unkleE says:

        Dear Mike,

        I don’t really care if you believe in the Trinity or not, and I agree with you that it isn’t a BIblical doctrine. But calling it nonsensical is a little precocious, I think. More humble might be to say that it is a doctrine that you personally cannot understand or find reasonable. After all, there is much about God that we cannot understand, but we don’t call God “nonsensical”.

        I suggest there are Biblical facts which don’t work well with the doctrine you suggest, and work well with the Trinity. There are other facts that seem to point the other way. There is no problem with remaining in doubt and saying we don’t know and we don’t understand, and this course also has the advantage of uniting rather than dividing.

        Best wishes.

        • Mike Gantt says:

          Eric,

          Thanks for the comment and the spirit in which you wrote it.

          By calling the trinity concept nonsensical, I am simply being straightforward and unequivocal about the issue. If I were aware of any realm of life, other than theology, where people thought of three persons in one being as reasonable, then there would be a basis for me to say that merely I do not understand or find it reasonable. Since, however, I am unaware of any such cases, it would be misleading for me to suggest that I might be a unique case.

          Additionally, it has been clergy and their institutions which have promulgated and enforced the doctrine of the trinity. Regular folks are just embracing what ostensibly authoritative folks have told them. Therefore, my challenge is not to common folk like myself, but to the authorities who impose falsehoods on people without any basis in the word of God. I am appealing to common sense, and the only way to do that it declare my position clearly.

          Third, the only proper treatment of an idol is to smash it. To merely raise a question about its utility is to allow it to continue to detract attention from God.

          There is indeed much about God that we cannot understand, and I have more reason than most to be humble. I am sixty years old and precocity is a state of which I am not capable. I’m just a guy who, when he reads the Bible, sometimes understands parts of it. There are many things about our Lord that I do not understand, but woe to me and shame on me if I do not declare clearly what I do understand.

          Your servant,

          Mike

          • unkleE says:

            G’day Mike, thanks for your reply. I think we are more on the same page than differing, and I don’t see a lot of point in discussing in more detail. But I will just make one point.

            “If I were aware of any realm of life, other than theology, where people thought of three persons in one being as reasonable, then there would be a basis for me to say that merely I do not understand or find it reasonable.”

            But where else in life have we come across a being that is a “higher” form of life than human beings, one totally “other”, on a totally different plane, living (so the philosophers tell us) outside the boundaries of space and time? I think this is a poor reason to reject the doctrine of the trinity.

            “There are many things about our Lord that I do not understand, but woe to me and shame on me if I do not declare clearly what I do understand.”

            This I can easily identify with. But it leads me to sit loosely on the doctrine of the trinity rather than reject what I cannot possibly know. Surely the “correct” or “balanced” response is to equally oppose (in a friendly manner of course) those who make dogmatic statements either way? Surely to say the doctrine is “nonsensical” is as wrong as to say it is essential or Biblical?

            But that is all I wish to say. There are, I think in both of our minds, more important matters. Thanks for the opportunity to engage in this brief and friendly way. Best wishes.

            • Mike Gantt says:

              Eric,

              The primary reason I reject the doctrine of the Trinity is not because I cannot understand it, but rather because it is not biblical. Perhaps you have not read enough of what I have written on the subject to catch this point.

              I understand your not wanting to unnecessarily offend Christians by rejecting the concept outright, but recognize that there are many Jews and Muslims, as well as others, who reject Christ because they’ve been told He is part of a trinity and they cannot bring themselves to accept something that violates their sense – and it’s a proper sense – that God is one.

              The biggest problem with the trinity concept, however, is not just that it violates common sense and that it is unbiblical; it is that it is against Christ. That is, it obscures the teaching of Christ. Therefore, I am not so much anti-trinity as I am pro-Christ. Let me explain.

              Over and over in the New Testament we are told to make Christ the focal point of our faith. When He was baptized, the voice from heaven said, “This is My beloved Son; listen to Him!” In Colossians 1:18 Paul wrote that Christ should “come to have first place in everything.” How can He who is to have first place in everything be the second person of anything?

              If you’re not interested in pursing the subject further, that’s fine. If, however, your interest does rise again, please read the Posts to Date on the Trinity Versus Christ. There are over a hundred posts listed there that show how the trinity doctrine is blocking our view of Christ. We cannot follow Christ if we cannot clearly see Him. What matters most to me is seeing Christ in His fullness…and following Him fully. That’s why I want to be considered pro-Christ more than anti-trinity.

              As the adage goes, “Only one life and soon ’twill be past; only what’s done for Christ will last.”

  15. unkleE says:

    “The primary reason I reject the doctrine of the Trinity is not because I cannot understand it, but rather because it is not biblical.”

    Mike I do understand that, and I don’t object to it. We agree that the trinity is not a Biblical doctrine. But my initial comment was specifically directed to the statement that it was “nonsensical”, for I still think that is overstatement. There are many things we do and believe which are not Biblical, but neither are they “nonsensical”.

    But I must say I think strongly opposing the doctrine is also a little like missing the woods for the trees. It is a human (and perhaps, who knows, a Holy Spirit inspired) attempt to understand and explain what is beyond our understanding. I agree that it shouldn’t be promoted as unchangeable doctrine, but I can’t see it does much harm either.

    I had a quick look at your long list of posts against the trinity, but I really don’t see myself reading them all (sorry). In my experience, what you say isn’t correct. I don’t feel any lessening of my focus on Jesus, and I don’t see it elsewhere. I think people may have a wrong focus on Jesus (not based enough on the historical facts), but that has nothing to do with a focus on the trinity, but rather with a focus on doctrine and dogma (granted there may be some overlap here). I think in fact for most christians, the Spirit is underemphasised to the point of ignoring. If I may be presumptuous enough to comment on your beliefs, I think you would do well to focus on being “pro-Christ” while avoiding being “anti-trinity”.

    Anyway, my main comment was to suggest that “nonsensical” was extreme, and I guess I have now said that three times, so perhaps I should shut up. : ) Thanks for your time.

    • Mike Gantt says:

      There is one thing I like about the trinity concept: it deifies Jesus.

      Further, you have been quoting me slightly out of context. I did not say that the Trinity was nonsensical. Rather, I said, “Three persons co-existing as one being is a nonsensical concept.” I have to stand by that because saying that three of something is equal to one of something indeed is nonsensical. It violates common sense. It defies reason. It’s illogical or, if you prefer, not logical. It’s self-contradictory. An oxymoron. Yet if someone has been told that this is the only way he can believe that Jesus is God, I can understand why he would cling to the concept.

      I take your point that various truths of God, including the role of the Holy Spirit, are insufficiently emphasized at some times and in some places. However, the preeminence of Christ deserves our greatest emphasis at all times and in all places. We are called to follow Christ, to imitate Him. The trinity cannot be followed or imitated.

      Christians these days are mainly called by Christian leaders not to follow Christ but to follow church. That is, evangelical Christianity’s biggest concern after getting a person to accept Christ is to get them matriculated into a church. The trinity concept is the church’s mascot, like the “Fighting Irish” to Notre Dame or the “Trojans” to USC. It’s a great symbol for giving lip service (which is what sports fans give to their teams).

      The reason there are so many burned-out pastors is that church-building is not the work of God in this age. If it was, God would make sure his laborers always had their strength renewed. As it is, the God-fearing pastors are worn out from trying to serve God and build the church. The tasks are not the same – they are mutually exclusive. Is Jesus interested in getting a group of folks to gather one or more times a week at the corner of Elm and Oak to sing songs and collect money to support process? No, He’s interested in getting the folks already on Elm and on Oak to love each other as He loved them.

      Christ is King. The true church gathers to Him and not to each other. They follow Him. That is, they imitate His life and love. My biggest fear for burned-out pastors and burned-out Christians is that they will throw out the baby with the bathwater. That is, I fear they will walk away from Jesus and the church. Instead, my fond hope for them is that they will walk away from church in order to walk to Christ. The trinity concept is an excellent symbol for those who merely want to go to church and give lip service to God. But to the one who wants desperately to please God, only Christ will do.

  16. unkleE says:

    “I did not say that the Trinity was nonsensical. Rather, I said, “Three persons co-existing as one being is a nonsensical concept.”
    But Mike, isn’t the trinity exactly that – the idea that there is one God in three persons? If you say one then you say the other.

    I have to stand by that because saying that three of something is equal to one of something indeed is nonsensical.”
    Well I guess I’ll have to respectfully disagree with you. If it was “one person is three persons”, that might be nonsensical – it certainly would be for humans. But the trinity is “one God is three persons”, and I fail to see how that is nonsensical a priori A cube is one 3-D figure and 6 2-D figures at one and the same time. So if the persons of the trinity are somewhat analogous to humans, and if God is a being on another plane (dimension entirely), the concept may make perfect sense.

    I’m still not saying it’s true, or necessary, certainly not Biblical, but I think it is too much to say it is nonsensical. Why not just stick with “hard to understand”, “not Biblical” and “not what you believe”?

    Best wishes.

    • Mike Gantt says:

      Let’s leave aside for the moment that your chosen analogy is of something inanimate and impersonal rather than of a living entity.  The latter, of course, would be more appropriate for a living God.

      Let us also leave aside for the moment that your analogy is about correlating six of something rather than three of something – the latter being what the trinity is about.

      Let us further leave aside that the trinity concept declares God to be three of something and one of something – period.  That is, it does not say God is three of something in one dimension and one of something in another.

      Leaving all that aside, you are proposing as an analogy a single 3D cube as a composite of 6 2D squares.  I don’t think you would say, however, that a square is a cube.  The trinity concept, however, does say that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.  Therefore, for your illustration to be analogous, every square of the cube would have to be a cube as well as a square.  I think even you would have to agree that to say a square is a cube would be nonsensical.

      Is this the best analogy you can think of?

  17. unkleE says:

    Mike, I wasn’t making an analogy, I was pointing out that the idea that something can be multiples of one thing and a single one of something else is not a priori nonsensical, because sometimes it can be true. If you make a general statement and I can find one case when it doesn’t apply, then the general statement is not always true. That’s all. And the fact that one is 6 and one is 3 obviously doesn’t have any bearing on that.

    Like I said at the start, I’m not a dogmatic trinitarian, I just feel it is wrong to say the idea is nonsensical. And I think I can see where (from my perspective) you are getting confused.

    “I don’t think you would say, however, that a square is a cube. The trinity concept, however, does say that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.”

    You are here using the words “is” and “God” in two different senses. When people say “God is Father, Son & Spirit” they are saying the being God is composed of the 3 persons. “God” means a being and “is” means identical to.

    But when they say “Jesus is God”, they don’t mean Jesus is identical with the being God (that would mean that Jesus is the Spirit and himself and the Father all at once, which is clearly not what they mean). Rather, they mean Jesus is divine, he has the character or essence of God, or something like that. “is God” has a slightly different meaning.

    Once you see that the usage is slightly different, and to take it as the same is clearly misrepresenting the view you disagree with, perhaps you can think again about what you just wrote.

    Mike, I sense you are a little exasperated with me this time around. It is obviously an important topic to you whereas I don’t really care one way or another, I was just trying to point out what I thought was an overstatement. But I don’t want to upset you. Perhaps it is best we leave off, what do you think?

    • Mike Gantt says:

      Eric, before I respond to anything else let me be quick to say that you have not even come close to exasperating or upsetting me. You have been gracious throughout and I am happy to continue or discontinue this particular discussion according to your wishes.

    • Mike Gantt says:

      The last thing I want to do is to misrepresent a view to which I am opposed. That would not be fair to the opposing side, and therefore it would not promote truth. The truth should be promoted by truth, not by falsehood.

      When I said “The trinity concept, however, does say that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God,” I was quoting perhaps the most commonly-known representation of the Trinity. You can find it in the Wikipedia article on the Trinity. It is called The Shield of the Trinity, and you will find that it has its own Wikipedia article, too. I’m sure you recognize it, as I have often seen it where people propound this doctrine. You can also find a more modern version of it at the site of one of North America’s most prominent bloggers, Tim Challies. If you look up Tim’s post, you will see that his graphic also contains this statement: “God eternally exists as three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and each person is fully God, and there is one God.”

      Do you still think I am misrepresenting the Trinitarian view?

  18. unkleE says:

    “You have been gracious throughout and I am happy to continue or discontinue this particular discussion according to your wishes.”

    Thank you. I have tried to be courteous, but I realise this is more important to you than it is to me, and I thought I might be exasperating you. I will continue briefly, but I think it may not be profitable to keep on much longer.

    “It is called The Shield of the Trinity, and you will find that it has its own Wikipedia article, too. I’m sure you recognize it”

    No, I am not very familiar with trinitarian doctrine, because although I accept it as a possible and reasonable explanation, it’s not all that important to me – I am happy for some things about God to remain a mystery as is inevitable.

    I read the references, and I think some of what is contained in them (e.g. the Son begotten, the Spirit proceeding) is highly speculative and unnecessary, so we would agree there I imagine. I have never heard of the “Shield of the Trinity”, even when I was a more doctrinal person than I am now,and even completed a degree in theology.

    “Do you still think I am misrepresenting the Trinitarian view?”

    I noted Challies’ statement that you quote, and I would guess that would be a common trinitarian statement. But I still think the main issue is the meaning of “is” and “God” in that statement. If we take “is” to mean identical to, and “God” to mean the three persons of the trinity, then the statement “Jesus is God” does appear to be nonsense – which I presume is what you are getting at.

    But clearly it can’t mean this, because this would make Jesus identical to the Godhead (Father + Son + Spirit), which the common trinitarian statements deny (shown clearly in that Shield diagram). So what does the statement mean?

    As far as I understand it, the statement “Jesus is God” means that he is 100% divine, or has 100% of God’s nature (i.e. not partially God and partially human), while of course also being 100% human while on earth.

    I think an example is the word “Adam”, which comes from the Hebrew “man”. Adam was the name of a particular human being (whether we think of him as being literal or mythical is not important here), but is also a description of his nature as a human being. The word “God” is likewise, I believe, used in two slightly different ways (name and nature) and that is where I believe your confusion has come.

    Does that make any sense? Or have we reached an impasse?

    So, yes, I think you are misunderstanding or misrepresenting the trinitarian doctrine. If you accepted what I say here, would that remove your objections to the doctrine? Would it at least remove one objection?

    • Mike Gantt says:

      Eric,

      It’s not easy to know how to reply to you. You say that you are “not very familiar with the trinity doctrine” and “it’s not all that important” to you. Yet you keep defending it.

      Then, you agree with me about its nonsensical aspect but immediately airbrush away the problem by giving your own personal version of the doctrine, departing from trinitarian orthodoxy in the process. If anyone here is misunderstanding or misrepresenting the trinity doctrine it’s you.

      You have said that you are not interested in pursuing my fuller discussion of the topic. That’s fine by me, so let’s stop here.

      Perhaps you’ll want to engage on other subjects in which you are more interested. I would welcome that.

  19. unkleE says:

    I’m sorry to confuse you Mike, and by all means let’s draw this discussion to a close. But let me clarify your doubts (if I can).

    I have consistently said all along the following:

    1. I agree with you that the doctrine of the trinity is not Biblical.
    2. I think you are wrong to say it is “nonsensical” and to attack it so strongly.
    3. Because I think we humans cannot understand God to the extent required to draw a definite conclusion, I don’t think strong statements and argument are helpful.

    My main reason for writing at all was to make point #2.

    So I have only defended the doctrine as not being “nonsensical”, not tried to defend it beyond that. It was a small point, and perhaps I shouldn’t have bothered. And in suggesting the doctrine is not “nonsensical”, I don’t think I have departed from “trinitarian orthodoxy” but rather tried to explain where I think you have misunderstood the doctrine. I’m sorry if I have commented when I shouldn’t have. Best wishes.

  20. Dear Mike and unkleE, instead of focusing on things that you don’t agree with, why don’t you try focusing on something that you agree with? For example, why don’t we focus on what was the good news that Jesus came to preach? Was it not the fact that the Kingdom of Heaven is within you? Wasn’t that the only good news he preached during his ministry on earth? The truth of this good news is beyond any theology or human concepts. It can only be experienced just as Christ experienced it during his desert experience. Take some time out every morning and simply repeat the words of Christ “The Kingdom of God is within me.” for about an hour. If you keep at it, through all your trials, a time will come when you will understand who you are and what the good news of Christ really is.

  21. unkleE says:

    G’day Victor,

    I agree that it is better to get on with living as Jesus wants us to, and that focusing on disagreement is not always helpful. That is what I have stopped discussing with Mike.

    But I have studied Jesus in his historical context quite a bit, and I cannot agree that the good news Jesus preached can be summed up simply by “the Kingdom of Heaven is within you?”. He said a lot more about the kingdom than that. But if I we follow your advice, we won’t discuss our disagreement there, will we?

    Best wishes

    • Mike Gantt says:

      Hebrews 5:11 and Colossians 2:3, as well as other verses, indicate that there is much, much Jesus wants to teach us about Himself and His Kingdom. Blessed is he who continually seeks Jesus and His Kingdom.

  22. donteattrash says:

    oh hey bro.
    I love Jesus. But the trinity starts in two places for me mainly, but also hundreds if you look. eph 1 describes a discussion between God and Jesus (two separate personalities that converse) about how they wanted to adopt us (humanity) into their “family”. The other one is the beginning of time in the poem of genesis that describes “us” uses plural terms for God and describes God almost sending the holy spirit to do things.
    Holiness is not a seperateness otherwise we would have a God of anger and legality. But we have a God of grace and love who begins everything in perfect relationship – holiness – oneness between more then ones. Community. This is seen in every family, in every team, every group. It echos through our whole experience. It echos through water – ice, gas, liquid – it echos through dancing, sex, feasts, celebration. One singular God creates humanity because he is lonely. A communal holy God creates for the enjoyment of others.
    Jesus can’t be God on earth only, because then who is the father? they have to be separate. The holy spirit came only when the son returned to the father. So there you have THREE. two back in some place and the spirit on earth.
    The misunderstanding of the trinity (as well as other things) is the main reason for denominational disunity. the pentecostals have sat at the feet of the spirit, the salvation army has sat at the feet of jesus and the church of christ has sat at the feet of the father.
    If we get the whole of God, then we get to understand love fully. it is colourful and joy filled..

    • Mike Gantt says:

      If no one had ever told you about the Trinity, and you read the Bible on your own, do you think you would have found the idea there?

      • donteattrash says:

        Yes. Its obvious not only in scripture but in how God engages with the world. How the holy spirit communicates. how humanity keeps missing things when we miss the triune relationship and one ness.

  23. unkleE says:

    “If no one had ever told you about the Trinity, and you read the Bible on your own, do you think you would have found the idea there?”

    My answer for what it’s worth: The idea as it is currently believed isn’t there in the NT. But I think I would have found enough to lead me to the idea in time (maybe 300 years!).

    The trinity is a human doctrine, which tries to resolve two clear NT teachings: (1) Jesus was human, and (2) Jesus was divine, yet separate from God. I don’t know how many ways this dilemma could be resolved, but the trinity is a logical way to do it. I don’t know if it ever needed to be resolved. But it is possible that when Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would guide his followers into all truth, he was doing that here.

    So it may be a Holy Spirit inspired doctrine, or it may not – we can each make our judgment on that.

    Having come to that conclusion, I feel that strong Trinitarians and strong anti-Trinitarians are both going off at a tangent – what is required is that we follow Jesus faithfully, and this doctrinal matter shouldn’t be given too much importance.

    • Mike Gantt says:

      If a Trinitarian and a Unitarian both live according to the lordship of Christ, there should be no discernible difference in their behavior outside the prayer closet.

      • unkleE says:

        I think I probably agree with you here. Which is why I think the matter is of secondary importance only. And why I occasionally comment here, but am not much interested in arguing. Thanks for the opportunity.

        • Mike Gantt says:

          I only occasionally write on this subject. It is just one of many subjects I cover on my blogs.

          When I do write about it, it is to help people see Jesus more clearly so that they can listen to Him and follow Him. If the Trinity didn’t confuse people about how to be devoted to Jesus (a la 2 Corinthians 11:3) I wouldn’t write about it at all.

          • donteattrash says:

            But the trinity invites us into a deeper devotion, a communal devotion. a full picture devotion. Who would jesus be without his father? Like all boys with out father he’d be a lost orphan. Christ is not an orphan and neither are we because we are adopted into the trinity family FULLY and LEGALLY.

  24. dee says:

    Mike can i ask ques.. on speaking in tongues is it a gift or it means you are filled with holy Ghost?

    • Mike Gantt says:

      In the Bible it is both, but in American Pentecostalism it is overemphasized.

      • donteattrash says:

        just like every denomination over emphasizes something. Every denomination sits at the feet of one member of the trinity. Thats what flavours who we are as communities of believers. if we started sitting at the feet of the community of God. we would be not a zombie bride of christ – but a beautiful lady. (good thing Jesus sees us how he made us and not how we see ourselves.

  25. Robbie says:

    The way i see the trinity is like this: In His essence God is one, but in his economical function to move with and in man He is three. It doesn’t seem logical that God would be three, but the point isn’t logic. He’s not triune for our understanding although we prefer it that way, He’s triune for our experience. God remains one essentially, but to move economically He needs to be in the Son as the Spirit to be in us.

  26. E Bleure says:

    Mike Gantt is like Lucifer, he thinks he knows and understands God completely. I would run from this page.

  27. Pingback: Brandon E’s Objections: #9 – There Is Not a Sufficient Quality and Quantity of Other Believers in Christ Who Proclaim What I Am Proclaiming | Current Events in Light of the Kingdom of God

  28. Pingback: Forget Church. Forget the Trinity. Remember Jesus Christ. | Current Events in Light of the Kingdom of God

  29. herbert says:

    Wow! Some wild and crazy stuff here! Woo-wee! We are really gettin’ the ol’ brain activated now! We are amazing! So much smarter than everybody else, prettinear! Hoo-wee!

  30. Curt Russell says:

    Mike… Just curious… Who do you think “WE” and US” refers to in Genesis 1:26? Thanks, Curt

  31. Mike Gantt says:

    Curt, the text doesn’t say. It could be a reference to God and the Holy Spirit. It could be a reference to God and the angels, It could be a reference to God and some of the angels. It could be a reference to God, the Holy Spirit, and some of the angels, Etc.

  32. Pingback: Dominic’s Arguments | Current Events in Light of the Kingdom of God

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